I recently read an article suggesting that scolded dogs look guiltier if they are actually innocent. I was amused that somebody actually took the time to do a scientific study to determine what anybody who has carefully watched the behavior of their dogs already knows. Dogs display submissive behaviors – cowering, lowered tail, etc – when they anticipate punishment. This has nothing to do with “guilt.” I truly believe that humans are the only species that have saddled ourselves with the emotions of guilt, regret, remorse and shame and we are so childishly narcissistic, as a species, that we assume that other species (especially those we dearly love) experience the world in exactly the way that we do.
Though I know animals don’t feel guilt, I am convinced that they feel sorrow, grief and loss. They pine for other animal or human companions that have died (or are just on vacation). And I think they have a sense of the soul as well. This I learned from a horse vet. We had to put an old horse down once, years ago. I told the vet that I wanted to move the horse away from the paddock so that the other horses wouldn’t see what was happening. Anyone who owns or cares for horses knows that they form deep, deep attachments to one another. I thought the horses would react to the death of their friend like we would, and might blame the vet and even myself for the horse’s death.
We did move the horse away, but the vet said to me, “I’ve put down the lifelong pasture buddy of a horse, right next to him, many times. The healthy horse might be trying to crowd its way between me and his ailing friend. But the minute the horse is dead,” the vet said, “the living horse has no idea who the dead horse is anymore, even if his body is lying right there in front of him. It’s as if he never laid eyes on him before.”
Why do I think that’s one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever been told? That the life’s essence is what the horse recognizes in its mates, not the physical characteristics, and once that essence or spirit is gone, there is nothing left, in the mind of a horse.
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Cute pic of Daphne….She looks like she is gloating!!!
Very interesting study and reading everyone’s comments….
Demonstrates how unique and individual we all are…I love it!!!
Thank you for sharing a little insight, Ann
I really loved and welcomed the horse story, having lost a beautiful horse to a pasture accident in January, and working with his longtime BFF Norman ever since. And regarding dogs, A) I love every photo of Daphne – what a personality! and B)Do any of you get hugely snubbed by your dogs when you return from a trip away? I have 4 dogs – 2 are just happy we’ve returned and 2 won’t even look at us for the next 24 hours. It’s hilarious that they feel they can punish us!
Thanks Helena, I can’t seem to find the actual study so was only able to read the newspaper articles.
I know that sock face. I think dogs reveal a wonderful sense of humor sometimes. Mine will wag her whole body with mirth when she’s carrying something silly.
I promise I am not trying to play devils advocate, but I think that everyone that is reacting badly to the study needs to take a peek at the actual study.
The pups were not harmed.. but yes pups who hadn’t done anything were being observed to note how they reacted to being treated as if they did. Paralleling something that happens in homes everywhere when the owner comes home, discovers something has happened and scolds the wrong dog. Among a myriad of examples.
It’s a pretty interesting little study that is gaining a very strange reaction primarly from people who only get a short description. A funny thing I’ve noticed in my dogs regarding the whole guilt idea is what they look like when they are for example stealing socks…not exactly a guilty face
Hi all,
Not to belabour the point, but I also did not read the study. However, I still question its utility and I had an immediate, visceral reaction to a dog’s innocence and trusting nature being toyed with, whatever the intent…
That’s all I’ll say, too!
Lynne
Yes, yes, I deleted part of the post. Why? Let’s just say I felt bad naming the person who did the study when I hadn’t (and still haven’t) read the actual study. Let’s also just say that she’s a college professor. ANd let’s just say, while we’re at it, that I have a family member applying to colleges. That’s all I’ll say!
Going along with what the horse vet had said….My sister has worked at a vet for the past 10years and she has always said if you own more than one dog & one dies it is better for the other dog(s) to see that the other dog has passed away because its like some sort of acceptance. If the dog(s) sees that their buddy is gone, they probably still miss them but the dog will not be searching and/or trying to find their friend. My sister knows animals probably better than anyone I know so I have always believed in that train of thought. This might seem a little morbid in some ways, but it makes sense to me!
Why don’t you sing a particular song to the dogs, like I admitted to doing last week? You could choose one type of song that had a treat connected to it, and other songs without. If she is anything like my dog (and if you sing like Alfalfa), Daphne will sit and stare at you politely until it is done, regardless of whether or not there is a treat.
Absolutely beautiful, your post and the comments. I’m speechless and teary-eyed. Really touching, thank you.
Okay, now I’m very excited about my experiment. I’m going to start in a few weeks, as we’ll be away for a couple of weeks starting next week (of course, I’ll still be blogging). I’m going to videotape the whole thing. I love stuff like this. Any suggestions as to what piece of music I should choose as the one to have the (hopefully) Pavlovian reaction from the dogs?
And Tracey, I remember the email but I think the photos weren’t attached. I’ll go back and check. But you can always post photos on the Facebook group site and then I’ll announce on the blog that they’re there.
Very interesting post Ann, I hated to hear about the experiment,poor puppies
Daphne looks so adorable in that picture, your photos are just great! Loved reading about the vet with the horse, How thought provoking regarding the soul…. I have 2 dogs, Holly (yellow lab) Ronan (Golden retriever)… so so loving and giving..I am off to give them a treat!
Ann, did you get my email with the pics from Kim’s & my day at Fire Island? I sent them from my gmail account on Saturday. I know that sometimes the attachments don’t go through to you for some reason.
Ann:
Your idea for a study with your dogs and horses and music is fascinating. I can hardly wait to read about its progression. And you’re right about the invisible-to-us tells that our bodies give off to animals. I have learned that if I’m sitting outside on the porch when deer begin to wander into our yard for their nightly treats, they will behave much calmer and feel safer when I am not tense or anxious–or even excited, which, even after four years of having deer in my yard, still happens on a regular basis.
I want a horse!
I’d be curious if they’d know the difference in music. My pup knows body language. She always knows when I’m taking her for a ride without me saying a word. All I have to do is look at her and she gets excited.
She is also very aware of the food sounds and the garage door. The door to the closet where her food is, the sound of the cardboard box with her treats, etc. She can be 2 floors below and if I open the closet door she is there in a flash. As soon as the garage door starts to go up she dashes to the door with the tail wagging.
They’re so much fun!
Ann,
When our Tucker was very little, whenever I would crank up the music in the house (particularly when cooking) I would always start with the song “Yeah” by Usher. Tucker would run from wherever he was and we would “dance”. Then I varied it with other songs and he would still come running to dance whenever I turned on the music. Now of course, very possibly, he associates ANY music with fun and games. No treats are involved, so not a very scientific study here!
I think that their learning is mostly by association, that is, when the car door shuts at a certain time of day, my husband is home, when he hears the garage door opener, he knows someone is here, when he hears the UPS man honk at the top of the driveway, he knows his arch enemy is here!
The thing about all of these scientific studies is that so much is left out, and the parameters are very strict.
Interesting nonetheless, I will look forward to what you find out!
Oh–we have 2 dogs here….I’m going to try the experiment separately with each of them—-our chihuahua seems very alert and smart….guess we’ll find out. And the puggle will do ANYTHING for treats…..let’s see….let you know. barbara
Oh, Ann, what an interesting experiment. I’m anxious to know that outcome…I don’t know why, but I think they do recognize different types of music.
: )
Must follow up previous comment with this. I’m fascinated by dogs. I plan to do a study myself, with my own dogs, and maybe you all can try this with your dogs and we can compare notes. I’m interested in whether a dog can learn to recognize music. What I plan to do is play a piece of music -say, a short piece of a Beethoven concerto – after which I will always give a treat. I will then play other music, but will not follow with a treat. I will do this for a few weeks, of course switching up the order in which I play the music. I hope to learn whether the dog will learn to recognize the notes of the Beethoven piece and distinguish it from other music. The tricky part is that we give off clues that we don’t even recognize – subtle body cues and even adrenaline surges that dogs can sense and the dog might be able to recognize these “tells” when we play the Beethoven music, leading us to believe he “hears” the music.
Will also try the experiment on horses.
My guess is that they cannot distinguish between different types of music, let alone identify a specific tune.
Hi Phil, thanks for your comment. I read the Washington Post article and a New York Times article about the studies. Both provided a link to a very short abstract describing the study without any detail. If you could provide us with a link to the study that would be great.
I have blogged here before that I admire Cesar Millan. I think he’s very wise about the fact that humans often fail their dogs by trying to treat them like humans. Millan tries to treat them the way dogs treat each other – which does sometimes involve pinning down a dog who is trying to assert its dominance in an aggressive way. As humans, this seems cruel. But I have seen my dogs do this to a younger “fresh” dog who gets too rough and the younger dog isn’t humiliated or confused. He understands immediately that he has stepped out of line. I have only seen Cesar do this on his show when dogs are extremely aggressive. I have also seen Cesar Millan chastise dog owners for “teasing” dogs with treats or toys, in what would seem like harmless acts, but are in fact acts which undermine the dog’s faith in the human. I think teasing dogs is cruel. Having said that, I don’t think Ms. Horowitz meant to be cruel to the dogs in the study, and I’m sure none of them were damaged in the process. It just seems like a misguided study to me. One which tests a dog’s capacity for guilt – an emotion that most dog behavioral experts will agree does not exist in the dog’s psychological framework.
Now I’m crying. Kim, what a beautiful story about having all your dogs and your friends dogs with you. Beautiful. The dogs reaction to your cat is amazing.
Sandy O, the story about the horses circling was very moving and touching.
Elizabeth, thank you for your wonderful descriptions of Mac and Buster. It really is strange how we think we see them after they’re gone. When I wash and refill their water fountain, I keep expecting Royal to be right there, anxiously waiting to take the first drink as she always did. You’re right, I should just let myself go and imagine that she’s lying on my chest, rubbing her face against mine, tucking her head under my chin, purring madly, like she always did. She had the loudest purr of any cat I know. My theory is that since she couldn’t hear, she purred and meowed much louder.
Thank goodness I’m in the office alone, since I’m sitting here reading these beautiful stories, and crying. Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences.
I have a strong feeling that the people criticizing the study did not actually read it. I did read the study, and it’s not what you think it is.
The owners of the dogs were present for the whole thing, and none of the dogs had to participate. The dogs were scolded on some occasions, but the upshot was that the owners learned that scolding your dog really doesn’t have the effect that many people think it does, so it seems likely that because of this study fewer owners will scold their dogs unnecessarily in the future.
I am certain that if you are this angry about a study that occasionally causes dogs to be verbally scolded for things that they didn’t do (and which gave them plenty of treats), then you must be furious about the training methods of people like Cesar Milan, who teaches owners to aggressively hold their dogs down in a submissive position.
It’s interesting about dog’s not experiencing guilt. They may not feel guilty when they do something wrong but they are aware of their actions. My pup is classic… I know she has done something before I even get into the scene of the crime.
When she’s misbehaved as soon as she comes into my sight her ears go back and her tail starts wagging as fast as it can, her whole butt wiggles. It’s as if she’s saying “I’m sorry, please don’t be mad at me”. She is absolutely aware of the fact she did something she wasn’t suppose to.
The horse story was very touching. I’ve never been a big believer in funerals or burials but I think the animals do need closure and Kim’s story was interesting. It allows them to move on without missing the others too much.
I think I’m going to go hug my pup now!
Sandy O.:
Your story about the 15 horses forming a circle around their dying friend, then each–one by one–walking over to give their friend little nudges and knickers is truly a wondrous story. I’m glad to hear that once in a while animals do say goodbye in their own way to a friend.
Tracy:
Like you, I often look for Mac and Buster, forgetting they are forever gone. Out of the corner of my eye I can see Mac prancing through the house like a feline Fred Astaire. Mac was so graceful, elegant, and dainty on his paws. And I can envision Buster curled in my lap, purring loudly and happily, any time I want. Guess this is what is meant by a deceased person or pet never really being gone, huh? We keep them alive in our visions and memories.
Paula:
Death does not scare me, either. Illness, pain, dependency–these things terrify me. But dying does not scare me. No one believes me when I say this, but it’s true. I don’t believe in Heaven or Hell or a judgmental God, so I try to treat people the best way I can while I’m alive, because, in my opinion, there will be no one to wipe my slat clean upon my death. I hope I don’t offend anyone by these statements. Religion is another topic I greatly enjoy discussing with others who don’t get angry or preachy or pushy. This is a great post for thinking and ruminating on our respective philosophical views. Bet we could keep this posting going for days!!
Such a thoughtful and thought-provoking essay, Ann. I find what your vet said about horses to be so interesting, and I guess I have more in common with horses than I thought. Now about that dog “experiment.” First, why would anyone agree to put their dog through such a thing? I wonder about the validity of any findings, because whoever would do this to their dog probably is weird any way, so who knows how that affects the dogs? No doubt in my mind that the dogs in this study deserve better humans than they got. Also, I just have to say again (I said something similar in an earlier post) that I think your Daphne is a lovely thing.
All of these stories have literally brought me to tears………..in a good way. Sad, bittersweet but all beautiful.
What a wonderful photo – I so love it. I guess it is a ritual with me…..when a pet passes at our home it is a very very sad event and we are all effected by it. When it was time for my german shepherd to go about 6 yrs ago, we brought him to a vet who is also a close friend of ours. He opened his clinic after hours and we brought the rest of our pets with us except the cats. About 8 of our friends met us there with their pets because they were our shepherd’s buddies he used to play with. We all said goodbye in our own special way and cried very very hard. After the deed, we wrapped him up and placed him in a blanketed plastic tub, brought him home and placed the tub in the middle of the living room. The cats jumped in, smelled him repeatedly and my other dog at the time slept near the tub that night. We brought him the next day to be cremated. A few months ago, our very old cat passed and we did the same and the shepherds actually cried and yelped when they smelled him. We immediately buried him. I’ve always believed that when you have multiple pets and when one passes, the others need closure as humans do. From experience, I think it saddens and confuses them more to wake up and find their friend just missing. Its not for everyone – its just how we do it. To us – they seem to understand with a sniff, a cry and they walk away and come to us for comfort and to provide comfort to us. Ann – I so loved your “Good Souls” write up. Your last 2 paragraphs just choked me up. It was very moving for me.
Ann,
I too was feeling so sad at first that the horses didn’t know their mate/buddy when they died. I felt such sadness, but in rereading it and everyone’s comments, I have to say that it is beautiful. How wonderful for them that they don’t pine the rest of their lives for their lost mate.
I too have felt that the person in the coffin is not the person I knew and loved. I felt it when my Dad died in February, and I didn’t make it to the nursing home in time. I got there about 15 minutes after he passed. As I stood there crying over him I just felt that the essence of him was gone. You still have to grieve of course, but once the life ceases, the soul is not there anymore.
Interesting about the others pet’s reactions to death. I wondered if my cats missed the two that have died in the last few years. When my little deaf girl Royal died in my arms at home this past Christmas, the other cats avoided her, would not go near her once she was gone. When I got the carrier to take her to the vet for cremation a few minutes later, some of them came over to sniff her, and then walked away. I thought it was a smell of death, but I guess they didn’t know her anymore. I wondered if any of them ever miss her like I do. I still think I see her once in awhile, or forget she’s gone, and look for her. I guess the cats don’t even remember her.
Elisabeth, I’m so sorry for your loss. I’m sure all of us here will have you in our thoughts on Wednesday.
Annie, I loved your description of how your dog sees you. That is adorable.
A friend of mine had to have her horse euthanized out in a pasture, due to a tragic accident. There were about 15 other horses in the pasture, who formed a circle around their friend. After the vet gave the injection, and the sweet gelding “left” this world, a wonderous thing happened. As my friend walked away, one by one – each horse walked over to their beloved friend, and nudged his head, giving little knickers – as if to say goodbye. Then they slowly walked away.
Horses are truly spiritual animals. They have huge souls and even bigger hearts.
beautiful stories and comments by all. We all have our own take on life and that each one of us see so much in a living soul. I truly believe that anything that grows has a soul.For a soul is merely experiences trapped in side our existence.
Ann:
The story your veterinarian told you about horses and their reactions to the deaths of their friends will not leave my mind. It’s quite thought-provoking. It also answers a question I have had in a quiet corner of my brain ever since Mac, one of my much-loved 15-year-old house cats, died unexpectedly and immediately from a heart attack one otherwise normal Sunday afternoon almost 2 1/2 years ago. I hadn’t the emotional strength to bury him for some time, and spent a couple of hours on the floor with him, crying and saying my farewells. For about 45 minutes, Buster, one of our other house cats and Mac’s lifelong buddy, did not appear, even though he had been sleeping curled up with Mac at the time of his heart attack. Finally, Buster strolled past Mac and me, came over to Mac, sniffed him once, and immediately left the room.
At the time, I was shocked and a little appalled at what I saw as insensitivity and disinterest from Buster upon seeing his dearest friend in such a position. Now I understand that he knew Mac was no longer with us, that Mac had left this mortal coil. I feel such peace about Buster’s reaction now. Thank you, Ann. See?? No matter what you write about, the subject is bound to touch some of us and change our views and perspectives. You’ve given me a huge gift today.
Dear Elisabeth-I wish you peace and only happy memories as you remember your brother this Wednesday.
Ann,
This was (as Elisabeth has said so well already) a lovely, thought-provoking post-thank you!
Ms. H.’s “experiment” seems doubly nasty to me— not only is there emotional cruelty being meted out to the (trusting and innocent) dogs, but the exercise seems to be pointless in the extreme!I think Ms. H. would be a better subject to examine!
A few years ago my 17 years cat lost her sight and began to go into renal failure. We kept her going with special food and meds. One night, while my husband was away on business, she declined rapidly. We spent the night in bed cuddling and staring at each other. The following morning I took her to the vet and I knew she wouldn’t be coming home. Our wonderful vet checked her out, confirmed what I knew and gave us a few private last moments. I held her as he euthanized her and I watched with my own eyes as she slipped away. When it was all over, I knew SHE was gone. Her little body lie there but I knew in my bones she wasn’t there. It was a most strange feeling. My grief for myself was still tremendous as I DID make a special trip to the grocery store later for a bottle of wine and raw cookie dough. I was born in the Year of the Horse.
So thought provoking..I mean the post but, as always, the comments as well. I think a lot about death too, and strangely enough, have never been that afraid of it. The morbid Irish Catholic humor I think! I sent my horse loving daughter Ann’s post-she is spending the summer teaching riding (and hauling bales of hay)at a camp in CT she used to attend as a girl- and she agrees. But mostly she wants to talk about her new and one/true love, “Earl”..a lively bay who follows her around the paddock whinnying. She says she has never received such welcome male attention. She says they are truly and deeply in love. I can guarantee there will be weeping in September.
Elizabeth, thanks for such a sweet comment and after your original comment, I looked back over my post and realized that I should have said that the spirit of the horse had “moved on” instead of “gone.” Maybe I’ll change the wording. But I think in the mind of the horse, it’s just gone. To me, the beauty is in the knowledge that animals are so aware of the inner being. The spirit.
What a mean lady to humiliate and confuse a loving dog like that.Our Vizla used to have treats put on her nose and she wouldnt eat them unless you told her she could,she would stay put for long periods with drool dripping out but she always got her treat and usually extras!Never would we have been so mean just to see how she would react.
The bit from the vet sums up the way I feel whenever I approach a loved one at a funeral or wake,thats not them anymore, it’s just a shell.It’s really cathartic.The peaceful feeling however takes awhile to set in, at the funeral or wake I feel quite hopeless,but always come around.I might add the tolling of the bell at Fire Dept. funerals never fails to make me sob.I will think of the horses next time!
Daphne has me thinking about a labradoodle. Look at that face.
Dear Savannah is ultra adorable and sweet but is nearly 16 years old. She is blind and deaf as well. We make sure the furniture in the house stays in the same place so she can safely navigate the house.
As a dog lover I just can’t imagine a home without a four legged tail wagger who thinks I’m Joan of Arc, Marie Curie, and all the great women of history combined into one goofy gal. To her I am all that. This is why I take a “Go Ahead, Make My Day” stance when I hear of people mistreating/abusing animals, canines in particular, who are vulnerable creatures and do depend on us for shelter, food, and love. They provide so much more in return.
Annie M.
Elisabeth:
It seems that almost every post by Ann resonates deeply and personally with at least one person. Many times, with most of us. I wish for you wonderful, endearing, and happy memories on your brother’s birthday Wednesday.
I meant to add that I cropped Daphne’s halo out of the photo. She really would NOT eat the treat if told not to and would be completely confused (and disappointed in me) if scolded for it later. I also must add that I’m always amazed at how forgiving dogs are. If you accidentally step on their tail or trip over them, they might yelp and leap away, but will immediately come back, tail wagging, to accept your apologies and offer licks that say, “I get it. You’re a spaz. No hard feelings”
Lupe, I just downloaded “Angler” onto my Kindle based on your review. Have been meaning to read it, but also know how enraging it will be. Feel like having a good rage-fest now.
Ann:
I just read
“Angler: The Cheney Vice Presidency.”
And I think I was wrong when I said ‘we had no personalities’ anymore. Yes, we do!.
Does not have to be an enduring one, nor a charmed one, not a godsend one either… but ‘personalities’ we got.
Amazing the amount of ’stuff’ that officials have to go through to be nominated for anything. There are some thought and anger provoking ‘essays’ as to what goes in one of those files, who gets them, who interprets them and how it is used.
I want Jefferson back!.
Anyone pull a nasty stunt like that (disguised as scientific study)on my dog – it won’t be pretty.
Annie M.
What a lovely, thought-provoking post.
I really love the part about the horses, and I believe they are right. I know that when my beloved older brother died unexpectedly a number of years ago, I was completely undone. But I remember standing beside his coffin and feeling, with absolute certainty, “That is not him,” by which I mean that the part of him that I knew, and loved, had gone. I found this enormously comforting at the time, and still do, when I think of it. Your post is strangely timed, also, as Wednesday would have been his bithday.
Shame on Ms. Horowitz!. Cruel wench from hell to do that and call it a test for anything at all.
And kind of revealing to learn that the horse has the capacity to distinguish ’soul gone’ once the other fellow has perished (by whatever means).
And I agree that the dog’s ‘guilt’ was fear.
Some people go to extremes to get recognized (Horowitz) and in the process, their sick pathos shines through. Angry here.
i could bawl reading this. if i met ms. horowitz, i might end up being carted off to jail. what a mean, pointless ’study.’
then…. reading what your vet said about the horses. it is beautiful and incredibly telling about the nature of horses, their capacity to understand things. incredibly touching.
Ann:
The vet’s comments about the reactions of healthy horses toward their lifelong equine friends before, during, and after the death of the friends made my mouth drop open. It took a few seconds for me to realize that I wasn’t breathing. Then I read what you wrote about your feelings and beliefs concerning these reactions. At first, I shook my head in disagreement. Then I took a few moments to reread your words and really think about them. You’re right. The essence or spirit of a living thing is what we all–animals or human beings–recognize and bond with. When the animal or person dies, all that’s left is the vessel which contained that essence. I’ve always believed this to be true. My initial reaction to your words was purely emotional.
Why do we humans engage in funerals and memorial services? Is it the religious aspect? Or is it partly because we find it difficult to say that final goodbye or see our loved one for the last time? Death is very hard for me to deal with, no matter whether it’s an acquaintance, a friend, a family member, a beloved pet, or simply a stray critter on the road. The utter finality of death never fails to undo me.
The study conducted by Ms. Horowitz was cruel, as you wrote. I find it unbelievable that a person can be so insensitive as to put a dog through those feelings of confusion and sadness merely for the sake of her useless curiosity. Dogs rely so completely on their masters for love, affection, safety, dependability, and a calming routine. To disrupt that flow is terrible. How could she see that hurt look in the eyes of these dogs and continue the experiment with the next dog and the next dog and the next?? Talk about a sociopath….
I also agree with you about humans being the only creatures who experience guilt. Pointless emotion–unless we learn a lesson and become better people. Those people who feel guilty about a specific action, yet repeat it over and over, and feel the guilt over and over, are also people I don’t quite understand. How can one be a person who feels guilt, yet does not feel the corresponding need to never again feel this guilt by correcting his or her action?
I’ve begun to ramble. But these are philosophical questions I think about often and enjoy debating with others. Thanks for the interesting post, Ann.